For all of you have have participated in at least one Gymkhana, how have the skills you learned or practiced there been useful out there in the "real world".
I'll kick this off.
Although riding is my main hobby/pastime, I also enjoy photography. Luckily these two hobbies go well together. Often I'll be riding down the road and see a great photo opportunity. Much of the time by the time I recognize it and my brain processes it I am already past that spot. So I'll just whip a U turn, even on a narrow road. Normally it's 2 U turns, one to go back and then another to go on.
Then there are those roads with curves so tight that it's not that much different from a gymkhana course.
(http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu171/wknudsen/2017%20pics/P5120011_zpsnndlac7s.jpg)
Oooo good topic!
Trail braking - many folks teach you NOT to brake in turns. But I have gotten myself out of MANY tight spots, hitting corners beyond the rise of a hill, going too fast in general, GK has saved my ass many times. Not just that, but practice of ANY kind not only builds skills but builds confidence. They don't give that out.
A bump in a turn can help but the biggest help in turns is to gun the engine at the proper time unless you must stop. The fastest way to stop is crossed up, or bike sideways.
You want enough torque to change your momentum so you can control your steering but not to go over your best speed.
Flying into a curve at a flat speed will allow your turn to be controlled by the momentum you went into the curve with.
Its better to tap the brakes before going into the curve and then giving it gas to keep a steady pace around the curve.
Works great for car racing too!
I've seen many riders oversteer in turns because they didn't change the momentum to rear wheel.
Allman brothers bassist sadly died in a curve going in too fast(Seen this way too often). IF you don't get momentum on rear wheel early you can easily slide into on coming traffic trying to slow or stop. IF you get momentum on rear wheel you can haul ass around the curve with total control.
Always best to let off the gas and then give it some gas prior to the curve.
In the interest of discussion and expressing differing opinions, I am going to respond as there are a number of things here I take issue with. My responses are based on my experience and understanding of motorcycle riding, control and physics. Other's opinions may differ. If so, jump in and share them.
So let's get the ball rolling...
Quote from: Vurrich on October 12, 2017, 10:06:23 PM
A bump in a turn can help but the biggest help in turns is to gun the engine at the proper time unless you must stop. The fastest way to stop is crossed up, or bike sideways.
Biggest help in a turn is to gun the engine? Nope. Gunning the engine (I am assuming "whack the throttle open") can hardly be described as the best help in a turn. Smooth but (very) aggressive roll on of the throttle is a legitimate technique when riding at a sporty pace, but otherwise "gunning it" can serve to disrupt stability and require the input of what would have otherwise been unnecessary rider control.
The fastest way to stop probably is to have the bike crossed up / sideways? Maybe so but you best be ready because that is also one of the best ways to crash! The best/fastest/safest way to stop is through judicious but aggressive application of front brake, even to the point of impending lock-up.
If you were to be sideways trying to stop, well, you'd be sliding sideways down the road until you stopped. The wheels/tires could not continue to turn otherwise you'd be rolling while sliding and if you were rolling while sliding, the net effect would be a vector that took you off at an angle into the oncoming lane.
Also, if crossed up / sideways was the best way to stop (and an implied 'slow down') we'd be seeing professional riders somehow? manage to apply that technique. Can't say I've seen any do so.
Quote from: Vurrich on October 12, 2017, 10:06:23 PM
You want enough torque to change your momentum so you can control your steering but not to go over your best speed.
I'm not sure what this means. :confused-29:
Want torque to change your momentum? Torque is a rotational force. A twisting force.
A force applied via a moment arm to a point of rotation. How does one come to rely on torque to allow them to control their steering without going over their best speed?
I'd argue you control your steering via body position and input to the handlebars. Perhaps you refer to the torque applied to the steering head via the handlebars?
Quote from: Vurrich on October 12, 2017, 10:06:23 PM
Flying into a curve at a flat speed will allow your turn to be controlled by the momentum you went into the curve with.
Its better to tap the brakes before going into the curve and then giving it gas to keep a steady pace around the curve.
Works great for car racing too!
Uh... nope.
"Better to tap the brakes" This statement is, in the context presented, a blanket statement. That makes it absolutely poor advice. You ever see Moto GP riders go from 180 mph and setup for a tight turn? I can absolutely assure you they do not "tap the brakes". They are so hard on the front binders the back tire is often skipping off the track surface. Are there times when a light tap of the brakes is appropriate and useful? Sure. But there are also times when aggressive braking is proper and appropriate. Not even just appropriate, but the best approach for the conditions and desired result.
Works great in car racing too? uhhh... again Nope. Having watched a fair amount of road racing (NASCAR, Indy car, Formula 1, etc) I have seen many times brake rotors glow red hot. Rotors do not glow red hot as a result of tapping the brakes.
I have driven very aggressively along certain mountain roads, in a certain area, and ridden with guys who are much better drivers in
much quicker cars and I can guarantee you, 100% absolute guarantee you, you just "tap the brakes" while driving/ riding at a very spirited pace and you will very, very soon find yourself off the road and in a ditch, stuck into a hillside, or worse.
Quote from: Vurrich on October 12, 2017, 10:06:23 PM
I've seen many riders oversteer in turns because they didn't change the momentum to rear wheel.
Allman brothers bassist sadly died in a curve going in too fast(Seen this way too often). IF you don't get momentum on rear wheel early you can easily slide into on coming traffic trying to slow or stop. IF you get momentum on rear wheel you can haul ass around the curve with total control.
HUH ???
Momentum is the product of the mass of a body (or system) X the velocity p=m x v
The rider and the motorcycle are a system. While rolling down the road, their system has momentum. It is the velocity x the mass.
You can change the momentum by:
a) changing weight of system (throw your tank bag off)
b) change velocity of system (speed up or slow down)
How does one "shift momentum" to the rear tire? The system has the momentum. You can't "move" the momentum from, say the middle of the motorcycle to the rear wheel.
You can transfer weight within the system (shifting rider position, braking, etc) but I know of no way one can change the momentum to the rear wheel. To me that concept is akin to trying to weight the color purple. Perhaps I am greatly mistaken but the concept is not valid.
I honestly have no idea what is being described when you say "IF you don't get momentum on rear wheel early you can easily slide into on coming traffic trying to slow or stop."
If you were in a turn and trying to slow or stop, you would apply front brake (perhaps in balance with some application of rear brake).
If one wishes to "haul ass around the curve with total control" then one must be able to do just that: Be in control and go fast.
I am fortunate. I have ridden with some very good riders over the years. I have been tucked behind them at substantially brisk speeds in fast 100 mph sweepers and tight 1st or 2nd gear turns where the back tire spins on exit. And I can honestly say that about zero percent of the concepts/ideas presented (in the initial post) were conceptualized or applied.
Quote from: Vurrich on October 12, 2017, 10:06:23 PM
Always best to let off the gas and then give it some gas prior to the curve.
Always? Nope.
Why would you let off the gas prior to the curve then give it gas prior to the curve? Whay not just stay on the gas?
What if it's a blind curve? What if you can't see what's in or around the curve. I'd say this suggestion needs some serious rethinking.
Final comment - I understand different people have different ways of describing things and different ways of riding motorcycles. This thread is about applying gymkhana skills (and by inference, general skills) to daily riding. In that light, I think it is good to discuss various experiences, techniques and points of advice.
I saw a number of points I disagreed and figured "What the heck? Let's all hash this stuff out."
Thanks for the opportunity to share my thoughts. I'm anxious to hear others. :respect-048:
You all know I haven't ridden much, and now ride even less, so I don't have many stories. But two times come to mind when I needed gymkhana skills. Both times happened when I was just messing around, exploring (read: lost) and wound up at a dead end. The first was before I'd even heard of gymkhana, although I HAD taken a BRC. I had to decide quick what I was going to do, because the dead end was downhill. I did some fast thinking and made a quick left into the last driveway before the end. Only problem was, the driveway was ALSO downhill, and it was covered with wet, slick-as-snot pine needles. So there I sat. I couldn't back up, and it was a short driveway, so I was pretty much just sitting there, feeling stupid, looking in someone's living room window. I finally decided the best course of action was to just take a left and ride through their front yard and get the hell out of there.
The second time was another dead end, straight up a steep hill, at night, hoping to get to a parking lot, but all I got to was a closed gate. To stop right there would have meant dropping the bike for sure. At this point, I actually had a little gymkhana practice under my belt. So I set up for a u-turn and managed it, with about a half inch to spare, and back down the hill I went. Win!
Quote from: Vurrich on October 12, 2017, 10:06:23 PM
A bump in a turn can help but the biggest help in turns is to gun the engine at the proper time unless you must stop. The fastest way to stop is crossed up, or bike sideways.
You want enough torque to change your momentum so you can control your steering but not to go over your best speed.
Flying into a curve at a flat speed will allow your turn to be controlled by the momentum you went into the curve with.
Its better to tap the brakes before going into the curve and then giving it gas to keep a steady pace around the curve.
Works great for car racing too!
I've seen many riders oversteer in turns because they didn't change the momentum to rear wheel.
Allman brothers bassist sadly died in a curve going in too fast(Seen this way too often). IF you don't get momentum on rear wheel early you can easily slide into on coming traffic trying to slow or stop. IF you get momentum on rear wheel you can haul ass around the curve with total control.
Always best to let off the gas and then give it some gas prior to the curve.
I consider myself a pretty experienced rider with many thousands of miles on some of the curviest roads in the country. I can't say that any of this makes much sense to me. :thinking-022:
Quote from: Brian A on October 13, 2017, 09:15:32 AM
In the interest of discussion ...
Sorry i didn't explain that well. GP moto racers use hard braking prior to turn and then back on the gas. That is what is taught. Motorcross racers do sideways powerslides to slow quick or stop at times and make quick turns. By going sideways it is possible to avoid a car that is right in front of you IF you know how to brake n powerslide your bike to side of the idiot that made quick turn in front of you rather than locking brakes straight up. I've done this. May not be the fastest stop but it was the best way to avoid the idiot in a cage and it stopped me from slamming him,. Sideways breaking can be very advantageous on dirt but not always necessary. (come over a hill fast and you spin it sideways to make a quick turn) You do't even need to apply brakes most of time for its automatically slowing you.
At a steady speed into a curve your vehicle will be controlled by inertia and that external force can push you into the other lane (attempting to stop will take you into that lane) if going too fast but by putting power to the rear wheel it will change the inertia and the force will make your turn tighter.. If you dont change the inertia you will fight it in a turn. But if biker 1 hits a curve at a steady 50mph and biker 2 slows prior to or gives it some gas then biker 2 should make that curve much easier because he has changed the inertia and is in better control. Power to the rear wheel will change the inertia providing better control in a curve.
Let off the gas in a curve and you will feel the bike taking you off your course.
No I didn't explain that well, not great with words. The quickest way for me to stop has been to turn it sideways on a rare occasion. I have done a half circle in the street to avoid a quick left turn cager without loosing it, by turning sideways and spinning it around. It saved my hide. That was probably the fastest I ever stopped a bike. I would have hit the cager otherwise. By going sideways I could serve away from the cager slightly rather than locking it up straight on into the car. It was instinct and I was in trouble and had to do something drastic. Learned that from hard and fast dirt riding. I did a lot of power sliding in my younger days.
On street racing they say to brake hard prior to the turn and then back on the gas to set your speed for the turn.
Quote from: Vurrich on October 14, 2017, 01:39:34 PM
Sorry i didn't explain that well.
At a steady speed into a curve your vehicle will be controlled by inertia and that external force can push you into the other lane (attempting to stop will take you into that lane) if going too fast but by putting power to the rear wheel it will change the inertia and the force will make your turn tighter.. But if biker 1 hits a curve at 50mph and biker 2 slows prior to or gives it some gas then biker 2 should make that curve much easier. Power to the rear wheel will change the inertia providing better control in a curve.
When I am in a curve my path is mainly controlled by my steering inputs unless my tires lose traction. Rolling off the gas in a curve will tend to tighten my line and rolling on the gas will tend to make me run wide. Both of these tendencies can be controlled by steering the bike where I want it to go although that can be difficult at very low speeds and tight turns.
Braking in a curve is a separate issue. On some bikes hitting the brakes, especially the front will make it want to go wide. Again, this can be controlled.
What you have stated, at least with respect to motorcycles is just not correct. Putting more power to the rear wheel will not tighten your line unless you use enough power to slide the rear wheel. Steering by sliding the rear wheel is a common technique in flat tracking and has been used in other forms of racing. Sure you can use this technique on the street but most of us aren't skilled enough to do that safely. I still don't see what any of this has to do with changing the inertia.
Getting back to low speed gymkhana skills. If you are in a tight (very tight) low speed curve and start falling to the inside, just give it some gas to straighten out and keep the bike upright. On the flip side, roll off the gas to tighten your line.
Quote from: Vurrich on October 14, 2017, 03:25:00 PM
No I didn't explain that well, not great with words. The quickest way for me to stop has been to turn it sideways on a rare occasion. I have done a half circle in the street to avoid a quick left turn cager without loosing it, by turning sideways and spinning it around. It saved my hide. That was probably the fastest I ever stopped a bike. I would have hit the cager otherwise. By going sideways I could serve away from the cager slightly rather than locking it up straight on into the car. It was instinct and I was in trouble and had to do something drastic. Learned that from hard and fast dirt riding. I did a lot of power sliding in my younger days.
On street racing they say to brake hard prior to the turn and then back on the gas to set your speed for the turn.
Except maybe at very low speeds, getting the bike sideways while trying to stop will almost certainly result in a low or high side crash for most of us mere mortals. If you can get your bike sideways while braking at speed and not crash you are a far better rider than anyone I know.
Now if you are talking about turning to avoid hitting something while on the brakes that's a different matter. That's a skill everyone should have.
Maybe I just don't understand what you are trying to say(http://advrider.com/styles/advrider_smilies/headscratch.gif)
Quote from: Vurrich on October 14, 2017, 03:25:00 PM
On street racing they say to brake hard prior to the turn and then back on the gas to set your speed for the turn.
Many do use the technique of braking while upright and then rolling on the throttle in the curve. Others will trail brake up to the apex then roll on the throttle once past the apex. A good rider will be able to do either one. :bike-038:
Quote from: klaviator on October 14, 2017, 04:26:42 PM
When I am in a curve my path is mainly controlled by my steering inputs unless my tires lose traction. Rolling off the gas in a curve will tend to tighten my line and rolling on the gas will tend to make me run wide. Both of these tendencies can be controlled by steering the bike where I want it to go although that can be difficult at very low speeds and tight turns.
If a bike does a casual 50 mph in curve without changing his speed and he finds it too fast for the curve and he will be straying into the wrong lane. (seen it many times) Trying to stop will often keep you headed in the way the bike is pushing into a possible collision. Giving it gas and power to the rear wheel will take you around that curve much easier because you are not fighting the inertia.
Works in cars too. It may not be expressed properly but it works.
Quote from: klaviator on October 14, 2017, 04:33:54 PM
Except maybe at very low speeds...
It was a combination of braking and a slight deviation from my collision course but the best way I could avoid a silly young driver that made a bad choice.
Quote from: Vurrich on October 14, 2017, 04:40:15 PM
If a bike does a casual 50 mph ...
If I find myself going to fast into a curve I can do two things. I can use the brakes to slow down while useing countersteering to prevent going wide or I can just use countersteering to lean the bike over as much as needed to make the curve. Option 2 will only work if I am really not going to fast for my bike to physically make the curve.
The
LAST thing I want to do if going too fast into a curve is to speed up.
Cars are a whole different matter which I am not going to get into.
Quote from: Vurrich on October 14, 2017, 04:40:15 PM
If a bike does a casual 50 mph in curve without changing his speed and he finds it too fast for the curve and he will be straying into the wrong lane. (seen it many times)
That's not because of "inertia" or failure to "gas it" in the turn. That's a failure to add more steering input and look where you want to go.
I've entered curves too hot before (more than a casual 50 mph)...what got me through the turn was controlled braking, increased counter-steering, and looking through the turn.
Sliding a motorcycle sideways is not the most effective obstacle avoidance maneuver. It may have worked for you once or twice, but that's like saying because you've tossed lawn darts straight into the air a couple of times and have never been skewered, it's completely safe to do.
Quote from: Vurrich on October 14, 2017, 01:39:34 PM
At a steady speed into a curve your vehicle will be controlled by inertia and that external force can push you into the other lane (attempting to stop will take you into that lane) if going too fast but by putting power to the rear wheel it will change the inertia and the force will make your turn tighter..
Sounds good except for pretty much everything you said.
One sample: Inertia in NOT an external force.
Suggestion: Study Newton's First Law of Motion.
In the mean time, hope you don't crash.
Edited to add: Do you really have an idea what you are talking about?
Quote from: KevinB on October 14, 2017, 05:02:56 PM
That's not because of ...
You brought up a very good point that I completely forgot to mention; looking through the turn. While this has nothing to do with physics it can make the difference between getting through the curve or crashing :respect-048:
Of course this is one of the keys skills in Gymkhana as well.
And a FWIW comment: Kevin B is one of those guys I have ridden with. One of those guys I have been behind, beside and in front of at very brisk speeds.
He knows about that of which he speaks.
Based on my reading of your comments here, you possess uncanny, almost superhuman skills. You are a combination of Valentino Rossi and Graham Jarvis.
Please, share more.
this is one of those topics that would be really good in person
Quote from: Vurrich on October 14, 2017, 04:40:15 PM
If a bike does a casual 50 mph in curve without changing his speed and he finds it too fast for the curve and he will be straying into the wrong lane. (seen it many times) Trying to stop will often keep you headed in the way the bike is pushing into a possible collision. Giving it gas and power to the rear wheel will take you around that curve much easier because you are not fighting the inertia.
Works in cars too. It may not be expressed properly but it works.
Quote from: Vurrich on October 14, 2017, 04:40:15 PM
The LAST thing I want to do if going too fast into a curve is to speed up.
WHAT ???
Have you any clue at all about the subject?Give it gas and power to the rear wheel but the last thing one wants to do is speed up?
This is an interesting and fascinating concept.
Given the fact that a motorcycle is a vehicle which achieves forward motion as the result of "power to the rear wheel", how does one apply more power to the rear wheel and not speed up (because this is the
LAST thing one would want to do) while at he same time managing to not fight inertia (which is the tendency of a body in motion to remain in uniform, straight line motion unless acted upon by an outside force) while dealing with the fact that the more momentum a body has, the more kinetic energy it has, so the more inertia it has.
Quote from: Vurrich on October 14, 2017, 04:40:15 PM
It may not be expressed properly but it works.
Whatever "It" is, I'm betting a dollar to a nickle it ain't expressed properly and a dollar to a dime if you DID express it properly (as you are trying to explain it) anyone who attempted to apply the riding techniques you are describing would wind up in a ditch in very short order.
(side note - what have you NOT seen many times?)
I failed physics. I just subscribe to the Slede school of motorcycle riding:
"When in trouble, shower on the throttle. It will either solve the problem or end the suspense."
Saved my ass in Alaska :respect-058:
Quote from: Brian A on October 14, 2017, 07:53:13 PM
Giving it gas and power to the rear wheel will take you around that curve much easier because you are not fighting the inertia.
Works in cars too.
DISCLAIMER - If you are describing applying sufficient power to the rear/drive wheels so that the tire(s) break traction and "drift" to the outside of the turn, then Yes, that is a legitimate technique for executing a turn.
But, not
NOT because it has anything in the world to do with "inertia".
But... because it changes the net velocity/acceleration vector.
The easiest, quickest, most common example of this is to observe flat track motorcycle racing. They "give gas and power to the rear wheel" to take [them] around the curve much easier.
Is this what you are describing as a common technique for riding on the street?
Actually rolling off the throttle mid corner will make the bike run wider, and a bit more will help tighten a corner. This is of course predicated on the assumption you aren't already at the limit of traction. Watch twist of the wrist 2 for a more in depth example.
MY APOLOGIES TO ALL.
This was meant to be a thread about "Gymkhana skills in the real world" and I believe I have been guilty of participating in a significant derailing of the thread.
Time for it to get back on track.
Quote from: Brian A on October 14, 2017, 09:32:56 PM
MY APOLOGIES TO ALL.
This was meant to be a thread about "Gymkhana skills in the real world" and I believe I have been guilty of participating in a significant derailing of the thread.
Time for it to get back on track.
No need to apologize. So what if we got a little off track. This has been an interesting discussion. It's my thread and I approve this message.
Quote from: IceCold4x4 on October 14, 2017, 09:31:47 PM
Actually rolling off the throttle mid corner will make the bike run wider, and a bit more will help tighten a corner. This is of course predicated on the assumption you aren't already at the limit of traction. Watch twist of the wrist 2 for a more in depth example.
I don't have time right now to watch this video but I think you have it backwards. Keep in mind that if you accelerate the bike will go faster and require more lean angle to maintain a steady turn. If you decelerate then keeping the same lean angle will cause your line to tighten up. There are a few other factors that complicate all this. For one, when you roll into a curve you need some additional throttle just to maintain a constant speed since the edges of tires have a smaller circumference than the middle of the tire. Second, depending on chassis geometry and tires, chopping the throttle
MAY cause the bike to want to stand up and run wide. I would guess that if your bike tends to stand up under braking it might also want to stand up if you chop the throttle. Regardless, if you slow down you can tighten your line with proper steering inputs.
Here's a quote from an article on cornering as well as the link to the entire article:
"Note that acceleration typically makes the bike drift wide and deceleration can either cause the bike to drop into the corner more or cause it to stand up, depending on how abruptly the throttle is chopped and how the machine /tire combo responds to this input."
http://www.ridinginthezone.com/how-not-to-suck-at-cornering/ (http://www.ridinginthezone.com/how-not-to-suck-at-cornering/)
Regardless, if you are going into a curve too hot, rolling on the throttle is NOT the best way to make it around the curve.
I did take the California Superbike school. Keith code did recommend rolling on the throttle as the fastest way around a curve but he was assuming that you slowed down enough before the curve to be able to do this. Also there are plenty of racers who don't agree with this technique and trail brake into the curve and roll on the throttle once past the apex as they start to stand up the bike and accelerate out of the curve.
While it may seem that we have drifted away form the original topic, I would argue this is all relevant. One of the great things about gymkhana is that you can practice a lot of the skills needed to ride your bike at lower speeds and in a controlled environment. You do get to experience what happens when you roll power on or off in a curve or brake in a curve. These skills still apply at higher speeds although there are obviously some differences in how you bike responds at higher speeds. Whether you are riding at low or high speeds the laws of physics do not change and neither do your bikes controls.
The short version of what I got from the video is that the weight transfer to the front from going off throttle increases the size of the front contact patch and that causes the bike to try and stand up. It's not a permanent running wide deal as once more speed is bled the bike will indeed turn tighter. I've tested the theory by rolling on and laying off throttle mid corner and find that a bit more throttle will tighten a line and less will go a bit wider. This was on my zrx and the old Vulcan 750. Haven't tried it on a dirt bike yet...
Needless to say the physics that control a 2 wheeled vehicle are rarely ever truly simple and generally have a laundry list of variables and things to account for.
I'll never claim to be the next rossi and have yet to do a track day so my observations are all street related and performed likely way under the limit of what the bike is capable of.
However bench racing is always a nice diversion.
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
In the MSF course, I was taught when approaching a curve you use the following sequence:
SLOW - reduce your speed to a safe speed to enter the curve, by rolling off the throttle or braking BEFORE the curve
LOOK - through the turn to your exit point
PRESS - countersteer
ROLL - roll on the throttle as you exit the curve
All of this with the outside, inside, outside path through the curve
(Outside being the half of the lane opposite the curve, so for a left hand turn, you would set up to the right side of the lane. The inside would be same as the turn, as in the left hand turn, left side of the lane).
What I have learned after much anguish and over analyzing is that practice improves the skills and creates muscle memory that can get you out of a bind quickly. Reaction times are quicker if you don't have to think about what to do. Your mind/body simply react.
Quote from: Chitza on October 15, 2017, 04:01:03 AM
In the MSF course, I was taught when approaching a curve you use the following sequence:
SLOW - reduce your speed to a safe speed to enter the curve, by rolling off the throttle or braking BEFORE the curve
LOOK - through the turn to your exit point
PRESS - countersteer
ROLL - roll on the throttle as you exit the curve
All of this with the outside, inside, outside path through the curve
(Outside being the half of the lane opposite the curve, so for a left hand turn, you would set up to the right side of the lane. The inside would be same as the turn, as in the left hand turn, left side of the lane).
What I have learned after much anguish and over analyzing is that practice improves the skills and creates muscle memory that can get you out of a bind quickly. Reaction times are quicker if you don't have to think about what to do. Your mind/body simply react.
The MSF really does their students a big disservice by making a big deal about not braking while in the curve and leaned over. A lot of riders now have the idea that you shouldn't touch the brakes while leaned over. This is TOTAL BS. While there are many who advocate completing your braking BEFORE the curve, Braking while IN the curve is a very useful skill that EVERY rider should have.
Quote from: IceCold4x4 on October 14, 2017, 11:00:42 PM
The short version of what I got from the video is that the weight transfer to the front from going off throttle increases the size of the front contact patch and that causes the bike to try and stand up. It's not a permanent running wide deal as once more speed is bled the bike will indeed turn tighter. I've tested the theory by rolling on and laying off throttle mid corner and find that a bit more throttle will tighten a line and less will go a bit wider. This was on my zrx and the old Vulcan 750. Haven't tried it on a dirt bike yet...
Needless to say the physics that control a 2 wheeled vehicle are rarely ever truly simple and generally have a laundry list of variables and things to account for.
I'll never claim to be the next rossi and have yet to do a track day so my observations are all street related and performed likely way under the limit of what the bike is capable of.
However bench racing is always a nice diversion.
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
My experience is more with braking while in the curve which affects the bike more than just rolling off the throttle. In my experience this is mainly dependent on tires. None of my bikes with skinny tires such as my dual sport bikes would try to stand up and run wide while braking in a curve. It is more likely to happen with wide tire bikes. For example. My old FJ1100 really wanted to stand up if I braked in a curve. I replaced it with an EX500 which would stay neutral braking in a curve. Then I replaced the OEM tires on the EX with the same brand and model of tires I had been using on the FJ and now it would stand up under braking. Switching to a different brand of tire made it neutral again. I think it's in the tire profile. I'm pretty sure that if a bike won't run wide under braking, it won't by just rolling off the throttle. I'm also pretty sure that Kieth Codes experience was with sport and race bikes which tend to have pretty wide tires.
Keep in mind that these tendencies to run wide or tighten up the line can be controlled by rider steering input.
Like you, my observations are from riding on the street, not the track.
One more thing. IMO the most common cause of riders running wide in a curve is NOT LOOKING THROUGH THE CURVE. They look at the edge of the road, target fixate, and run right off the road when the bike was perfectly capable of making the curve.
Quote from: klaviator on October 15, 2017, 04:49:51 AM
The MSF really does their students a big disservice by making a big deal about not braking while in the curve and leaned over. A lot of riders now have the idea that you shouldn't touch the brakes while leaned over. This is TOTAL BS. While there are many who advocate completing your braking BEFORE the curve, Braking while IN the curve is a very useful skill that EVERY rider should have.
Yeah. I agree. It messed me up for years. I remember the day I learned about trail braking. I was sitting at the races at Barber when a friend explained it to me. I was so excited about trying it, I left and rode up and down HWY 25. It was like Christmas morning. I do believe it wasn't the total answer, but between that, GK, and practice, practice, practice, it has finally clicked for me. THAT's what GK has done for me in the real world. I always feel like I ride better in general after a day on a GK course.
I went out this morning to check out some of this stuff. First up, the KLR. Chopping the throttle in a really slow and tight turn will cuase it to drop into the turn as expected. At higher speeds I could pretty much do anything I wanted with the throttle with no affect on the bike line. It just remained neutral as I expected after over 40,000 miles on this bike, many of them on twisty roads.
Then I tried the Versys. I know from experience that the Versys does have a slight tendency to stand up under braking. So i went around a bunch of curves and tried chopping the throttle. Yes there was a very slight tendency to run wide but if I wasn't looking for it I wouldn't have noticed it. Basically I can do almost anything I want mid corner on the Versys; chop the throttle, gas it, brake or change my line. It's one of the best handling street bike I have ridden, at least it is on smooth roads. The suspension could use some improvement.
I went out on my Kymco. I tried to get it to misbehave in a curve. On the gas, off the gas, trail braking, hitting the brakes in the middle of the curve......It just wouldn't do anything except go where I wanted it to go. What am I doing wrong :thinking-022:
Quote from: klaviator on October 15, 2017, 03:38:25 PM
It just wouldn't do anything except go where I wanted it to go. What am I doing wrong :thinking-022:
Try looking where you don't want it to go :lol-049:
No one has brought up the rule of 100 yet? At any given time you only have 100% of available traction to devote to any given input?
If you're using 80% of a traction to make a turn and try to use 40% to brake, you're going to have a bad day... Same deal with accelerating in a turn. By counter-steering harder, redistributing weight and applying throttle you can tighten a turn mid-line; trail-braking is also an effective method. However, the execution of both depends on the traction available at the time. I'd guess leaning over and counter-steering harder without throttle is most efficient and safest since it does the least to upset traction, but I can see where careful application of throttle could compress the suspension and help with the turn. Dangerous gambit though.
Ya'll want to discuss oil weights next? :eating-popcorn-03:
I don't even know what gymkhana is and after reading this thread, I already don't like it. What works best for me, fat boy on a 1000 lb GoldWing, is to slow down to get to the turn, doing the outside inside outside, and using controlled roll-on of the throttle during the turn. Not too much throttle and not too little. Slow is fast (and controlled). Watching where you want to go really changed my entire method of riding. Before that, all those years of riding was just more and more practice of bad technique. I LIKE riding the twisties and just the above simple little methods have greatly improved my traction, control of the bike, and overall fun. Now, if stuff jumps out of the woods in your line while you're in the curve, then yeah, you have to call on those (superhuman?) skills or crash into a moose and make him angry. Or into an 18-wheeler and make yourself dead. Neither one of which would be much fun. I stopped doing the dragon because so many cars AND bikes coming toward me are in MY lane. If you can get it on a quiet day, it's about the most fun you can have when not in bed.
I also subscribe to the "rule of 100" regarding traction. I've experimented with it in parking lots and yeah, there is something to that.
Goldwing is the second motorcycle in the video...
If you look, you can see that every rider IS looking where he wants to go.
Not a Goldwing but a different perspective.
https://vimeo.com/90412248
Another big bike...among others;
https://vimeo.com/71557258
Still pictures, not a video but if you look, you will see proper riding technique. This was taken down at the MSF riders school in Alabama. The instructors asked us to put on the school. They called it the next step to take after their advance course.
https://vimeo.com/61544425
Video from the same event. In this one you really should see just how Gymkhana can improve your skills on the street;
https://vimeo.com/61604000
When we have our next one, show up and try it. You will have some fun...I promise.
The guy on the black Goldwing and really ride it.
Quote from: skypuppy on November 22, 2017, 03:12:17 AM
I don't even know what gymkhana is and after reading this thread, I already don't like it.
This is not a good thread by which to judge gymkhana.
Gymkhana is supposed to help people master clutch, throttle, and brake in tight courses. It is also supposed to be fun. Some people need it more than others, but many people come to our events just to practice, make friends, and watch each other learn amazing maneuvers on their bikes.
Quote from: skypuppy on November 22, 2017, 03:12:17 AM
I don't even know what gymkhana is and after reading this thread, I already don't like it. What works best for me, fat boy on a 1000 lb GoldWing, is to slow down to get to the turn, doing the outside inside outside, and using controlled roll-on of the throttle during the turn. Not too much throttle and not too little. Slow is fast (and controlled). Watching where you want to go really changed my entire method of riding. Before that, all those years of riding was just more and more practice of bad technique. I LIKE riding the twisties and just the above simple little methods have greatly improved my traction, control of the bike, and overall fun. Now, if stuff jumps out of the woods in your line while you're in the curve, then yeah, you have to call on those (superhuman?) skills or crash into a moose and make him angry. Or into an 18-wheeler and make yourself dead. Neither one of which would be much fun. I stopped doing the dragon because so many cars AND bikes coming toward me are in MY lane. If you can get it on a quiet day, it's about the most fun you can have when not in bed.
I also subscribe to the "rule of 100" regarding traction. I've experimented with it in parking lots and yeah, there is something to that.
gk teaches traction, clutch , throttle, and brake control at slower speed. the lack of momentum means errors show up at a larger effect. smoothing out those errors builds confidence, smoothness, and predictability.
at first the results show up on the course as riders get better at the tight courses, gaining small confidence boosts and -didn't know I could do that- smiles.
the real joy happens later. when you enter/exit that sketchy parking lot, off camber road, or whatever you're not proficient/confident to handle normally... it clicks and you feel a new skill taking over and pulling you through. its weirder than it sounds, but it happens and when it does you smile.
gk is FUN , socializing, skill building.
if you show up and try, you will succeed.
:-)
I do a full lock u-turn into the carport every night when I get home. Does that count?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
Quote from: maydaymike on December 07, 2017, 04:28:29 PM
I do a full lock u-turn into the carport every night when I get home. Does that count?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
Yep, I think so.
Just read the entire thread...wow, it went off the rails early. :D
All I want to say is, the reason I do Gymkhana is because it is FUN! ;)
The building of my slow speed skill-set is a by-product that has been useful on the street and dirt. 8)
Speaking of Gymkhana...anyone interested in some more GP8 fun? Since it is winter, we do get a cold chill every now and then, I am thinking a Saturday after it gets warmer during the day.
Not necessary this Saturday, more along the lines of after the holidays.
No need to clutter up this thread, reply here;
http://www.motorcyclealabama.com/rides/index.php?topic=2479.0